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The Church and the church II
Well, just as a post on a very important and pertinent topic, someone new steps up to beautifully personify my points entirely. And I don’t wish to embarrass him… it would be nice if he would approach this with an open heart and see the Truth… not that I suspect that will happen… just a *bit* jaded due to past experience. Anyhow, this is needful, because I don’t think people understand the gravity of the situation. And I would’ve deleted his comment to protect him had he posted his comment on the ‘Church n’ church’ blog, but he (probably because the Lord is on my side and sent this to me in PERFECT time) placed it elsewhere on the site, so I can address it without giving away his identity. ((kewl beans!)) His comment?
I finished PDL within the past month and am daily posting my notes on the book on my xanga. I found your site from a comment left on a site I visit with some regularity. I found your comments laced with angry judgment on other “believers” (including Rick Warren and Billy Graham) and was concerned by what I saw. I then came and visited your site. I’ve read several items on your site, including this one, and I’m just as concerned about what you’ve written as you seem to be with what Rick Warren wrote. I can agree with you on a lot of things, but some of the stuff you post is just as bad as what you’ve criticized.
The same Paul you quote as “never saying to be ‘sensitive'” gave Peter the what-fors about not offending the gentiles. Christ accepts us in spite of our sin. He forgives sin. Its our job to believe, to trust in him for our salvation, to act on our beliefs by being obedient to his commands to the very best of our abilities. When you offend someone through your own prejudice you are sinning. You offended me by casting judgment on people who have brought a lot of sinners closer to Jesus. The truth may hurt at times, you might say, but Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Worshipping Rick Warren is a sin. You obvious don’t worship him. If other’s do, then fine to point that out. I like various study materials that help me understand scripture better, but not materials which replace scripture. I’m no fan of paraphrased “bibles” either, nor studies which don’t use scripture to back up what they say. In this case I think you are too sensitive and with this superstructured site I wonder if you’re not the one wanting to be worshipped. Sorry for going off on you like this, but I really think you are mashing sour grapes with some of your caustic stuff like this entry.
Well, at least he put “believers” in quotes… LoL!!! I’m sorry, I know I shouldn’t laugh, but ‘super-structured’? Hello… the sidebar is for other’s convenience (started by request, btw), not for me. There’s no rhyme or reason to what I post or when I post or how I post it… so ‘super-structured’ + little blonde housewife = giggles. Me? Wanting to be worshipped? I wonder if he’d say the same thing about Paul. After all, people awaited Paul’s messages with eagerness and/or interest akin to some of the stuff recieved here.
Speaking of Paul, this guy – on top of all else – takes scripture out of context (the reference to Paul’s statements about ‘offending’ are actually from 1 Corinthians 8 and aren’t for Gentiles, they’re for those ‘weak in faith’… which, if he’s posting like that, he’s not… nor are my readers!!). Well, he’s learned well from PDL how to use scripture to make it say what benefits him. Do you see the dangers of believing things and reading things that are not in alignment with scripture? Soon you’re doing the same thing – believing things that aren’t true, twisting the Word, and all because you didn’t go into it like a good Berean and hold it up to scripture to find it lacking.
So I needed to address the comment, and show it for what it really was. My reply?
So… you’re saying because Jesus offended the Pharisees, He was sinning? Question: are you nuts? Wow, I’m so sorry He mashed sour grapes ‘cleansing’ the temple… His bad, I guess. Should’ve not judged ’em that way, Lord. ((?!!)) And as for angry judgment, I believe Christ did a bit of that, too… (see previous three sentences). Do you need verses? I don’t think they’re found in Rick Warren’s book… You might want to look at John 7:24 for one. Revelation 3:16 for another. There’re lots more, too. Oh, and one more question: Do you think Paul was stoned, boiled, imprisoned, beaten, and the like because he was unoffensive? ((I can’t think like that))
This may not be the site for you. Fluff doesn’t fly here. I teach Truth per scripture. Have a nice day.
Do you see what I mean, though? The church does not uphold scripture as the Truth it is, but contorts it so that people like this poor bloke are suddenly floundering in their application of scripture, more worried about ‘the unoffensive luvvy happies’ than standing firm, girding up, fighting the fight, and not even bidding godspeed to those who bring false doctrine. (NoTe: not necessarily false scripture. Doctrine and scripture are two different things. Much like the Church and the church.) Even Jesus offended people – See John 6:61 and the results following in verse 66. People took off because they were offended! He never preached unoffensive, luvvy happies. He taught that He was the ONLY way to eternal life. Well, hell, we just offended the majority of the WORLD with that one!
Maybe I do have a bit of a blunt approach to things, and maybe there’s a more luvving way to handle it, but the church is so oozing with luvv that I don’t see where they need any more. Seriously. Even logically, his argument doesn’t hold, and that’s barring the way it puts scripture into contradiction. If one simple paragraph can obliterate the man’s argument and show the tenents its based on as faulty and misused, how on EARTH is he going to be of any heavenly use to the Lord? Do you see why I call these feel-good doctrines poison? Why Christ called it ‘leaven’? Do you see how it hurts a person’s witness, their very faith?
We should not be too hard on this man. He has the Way… he’s got potential to be Philedelphia. But he’s been sold short on the Truth and lured into Laodicea. If we’re told to worship God in Spirit and Truth, he’s half a side of a coin short, and it’s thanks to crap like PDL that erroneously uses assorted paraphrases to decieve and teach a doctrine that isn’t found in scripture. How on earth can the Church grow if the church is feeding it moldy bread?
Point made. Illustrated. Lit up with neon. A-mazing. Apparently God wanted this driven home, eh?
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FKIProfessor
/ February 2, 2005Fortunately the Lord does have perfect timing, as you eloquently pointed out. As a person always eager to learn something, with a mind open enough to at least listen to answers, I’d like to see if I understand you correctly. Christ offended people. We know Christ didn’t sin. It therefor follows that offending someone with the Truth is not sin. I don’t think Jesus had any room for the wishy-washy. The Rev 3:16 verse is one I also would have chosen to illustrate this point as you did.
Your blade is quite sharp (Eph 6:17). I’m sure that this person who left you this comment would be interested in the truth. I am amused, however, at the interchange about the structure. You actually sound sensitive about that one.
This person had one point I didn’t see you address and I’m curious about. That is the subject of judging others. The references in this quote were to Rick Warren and Billy Graham. Having read PDL I felt like I got a lot from it. I have only listened to Graham a few times, but have been unable to find fault. Warren does have flaws, but so do I. I guess maybe if I was preaching it would be different. So can you give a very brief and direct answer as to what is wrong with Billy Graham and Rick Warren and why you judge them as you do? I read your entry from yesterday and I’d also like to know what makes Tozer different. Thanks.
satsoul
/ February 2, 2005The TRUTH is a sharp blade – use it when needed, to cut out the cancer that is killing those who cannot yet think for themselves…….
Blessings!
Anna
/ February 2, 2005Brief is impossible. There’s too much. It’s like asking someone to briefly explain the theory of quantum physics. And to be honest, I bought into the Billy Graham thang for most of my life. Until I got a Newsweek in the mail that discussed heaven and hell, and quoted Billy Graham as saying that hell isn’t a real place, but rather a state of being. I couldn’t believe Billy Graham would say that… so I did some research. Here are bits of what I found:
Billy Graham refers new converts back to wahtever belief system they originally had ties to. In a 9/21/57 interview with the San Francisco News, Graham said, “Anyone who makes a decision at our meetings is seen later and referred to a local clergyman, Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish.” Since 1957 he’s opened to other belief systems, too.In 1948, he said: “The three gravest menaces faced by Orthodox Christianity are Communism, Roman Catholicism, and Mohammedanism.” By 1973, however, Graham had changed his tune. He said that Communist Mao Tse-Tung’s “eight precepts are basically the same as the Ten Commandments,” he praised the Roman Catholic mass as a “very beautiful thing”, and said Mohammed Ali’s beliefs in Islam “are something we all could believe.”
In 1978, McCall’s Magazine reported Dr. Graham’s “updated” understanding of the way of salvation: “I used to think that pagans in far-off countries were lost — were going to hell — if they did not have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them. I no longer believe that. … I believe there are other ways of recognizing the existence of God — through nature, for instance — and plenty of other opportunities, therefore, of saying yes to God.”
Los Angeles reporter David Colker asked Graham: “What about people of other faiths who live good lives but don’t profess a belief in Christ?” Graham replied, “I’m going to leave that to the Lord. He’ll decide that” (Los Angeles Herald Examiner, 7/22/85).
In a christmas day 1998 interview with Larry King, King questioned Graham about the afterlife soon after Graham had mentioned he was not afraid to die since he knew he would be with God:
GRAHAM: I’ll know Him. He’ll know me. He will receive me. I believe the moment that I die, an angel comes and takes my hand and leads me into His presence.KING: In your body or through a soul?GRAHAM: Both — maybe both, because we have been resurrected. Remember, this body’s coming back together again. Nothing ever disappears …KING: All right. You’ll meet Jesus and then what will it be like? What will paradise be like?GRAHAM: It’s going to be like paradise. It’ll be the — everything that you ever wanted for happiness will be there. People say that the Bible teaches there’s no sex in Heaven. If sex is necessary for our happiness and fulfillment, it’ll be there. And then, if certain other things that we think are pleasurable will — it’ll be there.
There are serious problems beyond what I ever thought. Enough that I would stay away from such teachings and statements. I wouldn’t align myself with that leaven if you paid me to. Sorry. As for Rick Warren? Under “False Teachings” in my sidebar, there are at least five CGM posts exposing the wrong doctrines and troubles I’ve had. I don’t have space for it here.
You impress me. Precious few do. ((grins)) I hope this helps you understand my reservations a little better. And yeah, I figure the purpose of a sword is to be sharp, y’know? ((wink!))
FKIProfessor
/ February 2, 2005THANKS for the kindness of a quick and complete reply. Since that last post I’ve spent most of the afternoon reading on your site (instead of working – *wink*). I’ve been professing to be a Christian for nearly 30 years. I’ve had my belief system shattered more than once (some good stories there). As a result I’ve learned to listen to alternative ideas and test the spirit (1 Thess 5:21). I shall think long and hard on this information. I have seen many good things come from some of the people you rail against. Jesus certainly railed against the pharasees, though, even though they maintained order and kept the Jewish “faith” alive through the doldrums between the last of the OT prophets and the appearance of Jesus. At least some of the people longed for the things of God in spite of the leadership they were given. Yes, I shall think on these things. In the meantime, I do appreciate your sword. And off subject, but I hope all goes well with the little one. TTFN. Be blessed.
FKIProfessor
/ February 2, 2005PS – I left something you may or may not find interesting on wandering04’s site in the comments about the “third day” concept. As to what she wrote – the jury is out for me. I saw what you wrote and it sounded like you’re going to cogitate on it a bit also. It sounded kinda ‘out there’ to me.
Anna
/ February 2, 2005Thanks. I responded over there for you.
Yeah, you’re not alone – my whole belief system was shaken more than once, too, which is why I don’t take anything – not even Billy Graham – for granted. X-Mess, the ‘salvation prayer’, Billy Graham, ‘no man knows the day or hour’… there have been a few revelations that totally blew everything I ever just assumed was true (from the church) away.
I think you may be a kindred spirit. ((wink!))
letseewhatthiswilldo
/ February 2, 2005What are the chances Rick Warren is one of many masons, using christianity to sell books, but doesnt believe a word of it becasue he worships lucifer? Hmm?
Just a hunch.
Wouldn’t really have to be Rick Warren either, I mean you could put several names in that category couldn’t you?
I am a man with a pastor’s heart, and what I desire for people is to read, and live in God’s Word.
These other teachers, keep them from them that..keeping them so shallow, so they will never see who the modern-day babylonians are in all their various masks…because its THEM, hooked up to cash registers.
But I do. And its all coming down.
Thanks again Anna. I agree with you.
outofthefire
/ February 3, 2005Man, how DO they find you? I almost consider it a minor miracle if someone finds my site outside the realm of my “regular” readers. Maybe that’s a blessing though.
I’m going to head out for now, but may be back later to comment on one of your earlier posts too…