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Present Perfect
I’m having the same trouble with our current church as I do with EVERY church… they teach weird shit from the pulpit. I don’t get it. Or maybe I’m the screwed up one, but I don’t think so. I think I’m okay and the rest of the church-going people are totally messed in the head. Of course, even if I *were* screwed up, I wouldn’t think I was screwed up, because I’m, well, screwed up. ((Not so screwed up that I can’t think in circles like this – or at the least, pretzeled – but still…!))
Okay, so Pastor (yes, it was another ‘revival’ sermon – sucks to be me) was talking about ‘Walking in the Light’. And how that means we have to totally forsake darkness in order to walk in the light. I’m good with that. But then he got around to how hard that is, because we’re still in sin. “How many of you are perfect?” He asked. I think I’m the only one who wanted to raise their hand.
And… your jaw just dropped. What the HELL are you thinking, Anna?!?! Yeah, I figured that’d be your reaction. But think this thru with me, those of you who claim to be Christ-followers. Because it makes sense. Perfect ((grins)) sense.
Do you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross?
Do you believe He died for your sins?
Do you believe that it was a once-for-all sacrifice?
Do you believe that the sacrifice covers ALL sins?
Do you believe ‘all sins’ means past, present, and future?
Do you believe that that atonement washed you white as snow?
Do you believe that purity and pefection are in that?
Then you HAVE to believe that you are perfect.
This is what TOTALLY amazes me… Christchuns believe that Christ died for ALL their sins, but they remain imperfect in sin. Brian says the same thing. He doesn’t grasp my whole concept of this, and I don’t understand why. If Christ washed away those sins… how can you still be in them? You CAN’T be, or He couldn’t have washed them away. I’m sorry, but I see it that simply. I *am* perfect. I *am* pure. My actions aren’t always pure or perfect, but I am not defined solely by my actions, now am I? What I do isn’t necessarily who I am. Having said that, if the sinful things I do are already atoned for, I’m not made imperfect by them.
Now don’t get me wrong… if a person is truly desiring to serve Christ (aka Christ-following), they aren’t going to deliberately do bad/wrong/sinful things. That’s contrary to the the life of a redeemed person. BUT… those things are going to happen. So that we learn from them. We aren’t ‘soiled’ by them – washed in the blood means washed white as snow, and that means no soil on ya. Pure and perfect. Do you see what I’m saying?
And then there’s this preacher in the pulpit, asking “Are any of you perfect? Raise your hand! OF COURSE NOT! No one’s perfect!” And I’m totally gritting my teeth, because if I claim the gift of life Christ offers me – I am perfect. And no preacha-man is gonna tell me otherwise… because that is in DIRECT contradiction of the scriptures. Am I washed white as snow, or am I not? Because as far as I’m concerned, those sins – the ones I did yesterday and in the past AND the one’s I commit today and in the future have been thrown as far as East is from West. And I won’t say anything less, or I negate the Cross.
Have I mentioned I have HUGE issues with church? OTOH, I think it’s good to go, because I sit there and PROVE my faith against the statements made from the pulpit. And most of the time, it’s just like this – some stOOpid statement only grounds me further in the TRUTH. And I think that’s hugely important, don’t you?
I’m so glad we’ve talked thru this. Now it’s your turn. Feedback, people…
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erinjo
/ March 20, 2006i think you’ve hit on a major misconception in the church today, something i’m thankful my pastor sees and speaks against. we don’t know who we are in Christ. we see ourselves as “sinners saved by grace,” and while that’s true, we take it too far. we’re held back by that viewpoint. we need to change our mindsets completely. we should be suprised when we sin, because we are not sinners but made saints. how will we be able to grow if all we can say to ourselves when we mess up is “well i’m a sinner so i guess it figures” ? that’s where the church is stuck, and that’s why it is so powerless when it was made to be powerful. we don’t know who we are. if the God i serve is great, and He lives inside of me, aren’t i great as well? it the God i serve is perfect, and he lives inside of me, shouldn’t that make me perfect as well? it’s not a pride thing…not an arrogance thing. it’s knowing who you are. so..right on anna.
extricated
/ March 20, 2006I agree with what you’ve said, and I wonder if your pastor would too. ?I wonder if it’s just an issue of semantics.Yes. We are perfect in Christ; But do I ever make mistakes? Yes. So by human standards, I’m far from “perfect”.I wasn’t there for the whole context of the sermon, so I can’t offer much. If your pastor doesn’t think we’ve been made perfect in Christ, then you need a new church. However, I’m not sure if that’s what he was getting at exactly.?Thanks for sharing.
Anna
/ March 20, 2006But that’s just my point. Too many people SAY THINGS like that – whether they mean it or not, and by doing so the AREN’T claiming the promises. And pretty soon it’s not just in word, it’s in deed. It’s crazy.
A_la_compagnie_des_amis
/ March 20, 2006I totally follow you. Is your pastor coming from a Reformed Theological perspective? (Calvinist). I get really impatient when churches emphasize man’s depravity instead of focusing on the fact that we all possess the image of God and, as a result of Christ’s sacrifce, are made pure…what about our sins being as far removed from us as the East is from the West?
Captain_Margaret
/ March 20, 2006If you want to hear weird shit in church, go to a Catholic one. Every christmas I go with the fam (I have an uber-Catholic father) and some of the stuff I hear can really amuse me. But aside from that, I havent been able to go to any other church in a while, for similar, yet different reasons. So I do understand somewhat.
FKIProfessor
/ March 20, 2006I do NOT think I’m perfect. My hope is that the time comes. But right now, today, in this mortal coil? Nope. Being perfected – yes. Did Jesus die for sins past/present/future? Yes. Does that make us perfect? No. It makes HIM perfect. If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need him. That’s the whole point of Gen 3. As for no soil on us, then what about Jesus washing Peter’s feet?
Jn 13:10 Jesus said to him, “The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.” It seems to me this can be taken two ways. Jesus said Peter was completely clean, but in the same breath he said his feet were an exception. I think this means while we have been cleansed, we still are in the world and imperfect and must continue to come to the water of life so as to keep from being swallowed up again by the grime of the world.
Eccl 7:10 (quoted in Ro 3:10) Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Is there any perfect, except Christ?
Jn 8:7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” Do you feel you can throw stones?
2 Thess 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. We are a work in progress.
1 Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. Perfection. What we look forward to. To be changed to our ultimate imperishable and therefore perfected form.
You know I’m not a once-saved kinda guy. I don’t think you are, either, last I checked. So… perfect? No, not yet. We have a promise. A work in progress… yes. The process is what we call life here. We live in a mortal tent, but one day we’ll be in the perfect rooms of a perfect mansion.
bugsteetjones
/ March 20, 2006I follow you, but I’m going to have to think about this for a while…ryc: A post from you?! All of my own? It’s too good to be true!!
circumstances_mean_nothing
/ March 20, 2006Reading that, I have to agree. It’s something I haven’t really thought about but am definitely going to delve into, now.
Thanks for bringing this up! This seems too important to miss or misunderstand.
<3 Leeza
BeeyondSight
/ March 20, 2006This is one of those “biggies” that confuse people all the time. (And there have been big “movements/doctrines” established on this very type of confusion!) The truth is that both are true! And… you will find scripture to verify BOTH. BTW, this isn’t the only truth that turns out this way, the whole calvin/armenian mess is a result of this same kind of thing also! But let’s NOT go there. The reason that both are true is that it is the same truth only viewed from two different angles! One is the “eternal” perspective… as in the Ephesians “seated in the heavenlies” type passages. The truth from Scripture says… we are seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus, that is our “position”, as children of Christ! O.K… got that.. except … I didn’t know there would be dirty dishes in heaven.. that is what I am seated beside right now! :-p You see what I mean? What I am looking at, and living in, is the reality that I am a finite being still living on this earth. So this “earthly” perspective is true also. That is what Paul was talking about when he exclaimed over his continuing to sin, “oh wretched man that I am”… Same truth (our position in Christ) but there are two different sides on this coin!I think that is why some theologians have taken salvation and kind of “split-out” the terms to make it a little easier to understand. The terms are “Justification”: meaning the point of salvation, when you accept Christ as savior. Sanctification: The process by which we are being made into the image of Christ, and our “Ultimate Redemption”, or some call this the perfection of the saints. This is where our entire being is transformed and we will see Him as He is. This only happens in heaven. Till then… all of fallen creation groans and waits for this ultimate perfection! Rom. 8:22,23Does that help at all? Love, Bee
Blogging_Friends
/ March 20, 2006I agree and it’s very simple to me. God cannot look upon sin. God sees us through the “filter” of Jesus Christ who stands before God on our behalf. Our sins are covered by his shed blood.
Anna
/ March 20, 2006Prof: John 13:10 is a reference to the fact that, while we ‘walk’ on this earth, we are going to be walking in sin. That does not mean we’re not pure… and Jesus cleans our feet as He did theirs (to illustrate his point). The one who was not clean was Judas, who was not a ‘Christ-follower’ at all.
The rest of your verses only confirm my point – that while we sin, our PRESENT sins are already atoned for, and therefore I’m already forgiven them. So, I’m perfect in Christ. ((shrugs))
Des_Amies: Nope, I’m NOT NOT NOT Christian Reformed. Ever. At all. Thanks. ((wink!))
shakeNshine
/ March 20, 2006you’ve got a point…………..although I wouldn’t use the word perfect……..I tend to use the word saint. It may have the same conotations…………….but God does see us as the “finished product”………..or as you say…perfect. Too many ppl don’t realize that. Good post…………..***hug***
ReddKatt
/ March 20, 2006Hmm.. good point! Why do people rest in their past when Christ has already taken care of it? Why do they worry about the sin that they might commit..or will commit…willingly or not? Paul said we shouldn’t continue in sin that grace may abound…so don’t worry about that. I don’t get why so many pastors get people are disconbobulated with stressing the imperfections of their humanity. How can you be effective in your walk and witness if you are always worried about what you CAN’T do *supposedly*. I, in fact, if someone tells me I CAN’T do something then I am going to work 10 or 100 times harder just to prove em wrong! We need to remember WHO we are and WHAT Christ did…and rest and wrestle with that. Perfect we aren’t…because we are human. PERFECTED we are…by Christ the minute we are washed in the blood and grafted into the Vine! Good think to think on! Thanks! ~Katt =^,,^=
tozhannah
/ March 20, 2006First, I do agree with your premise that because of the blood of Christ, believers are justified and perfected. Furthermore, I think that in many ways, this injunction for believers to be perfect rests in the issue of motivation and blamelessness. God looks at what is at the bottom of our hearts, not at the “perfection” of our performance. So, to be perfect is not so much A+ behavior as it is blamelessness. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but I tried.
Lillyma
/ March 21, 2006Stuff like that really messed w/ my head when I was a kid. I hate revival sermons as much as you do, probably. I was a PK in the AofG, so I heard plenty of it. I can’t tell you how many times I “got saved” because the preacher made me feel like I wasn’t really saved, since I didn’t act perfect. Ugh.
FKIProfessor
/ March 21, 2006Sorry, Anna. I can’t think like that.
TXMom2Jami
/ March 21, 2006I’m with you on this one, Professor . . . can’t think like that. I know that God has forgiven me, is forgiving me, and will forgive me in the future as long as I have a repentant heart . . . but I am far from perfect! The promise of eternity with Him is what keeps me going, trying, striving to live for Him as best I can with His incredible grace.
Anna
/ March 21, 2006Then Christ’s gift wasn’t sufficient to wash all your sins at the cross? Is that what you’re saying? That you have to work for it, going, trying, striving? That’s a works-based salvation statement…
TXMom2Jami
/ March 21, 2006No, it’s not a works-based salvation statement. I know I’m saved. I also know that faith without works is dead . . . I have to make the effort, I have to press on — to quote Paul in Philipians3:12 “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.” Paul also writes a little further down, in Philippians 3:20 and 21: “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly await for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.” Paul uses the word “will” — a future-tense word, indicating we are not perfect . . . yet.
Paul teaches that he is not already perfected, but he presses on to lay hold of the promises of Christ Jesus – citizenship in heaven, transformed and made new. My question for you is, if we are already perfect here, how do you explain the above scripture? And if we are perfect here, what need have we of transformation?
Jesus Christ’s gift was more than sufficient – He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end — nothing is completed without Him. Until His return, however, we still live in a sinful world and we still have the propensity to sin. Romans 12:2 says that we should not be “conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” I understand this scripture to mean that the “renewing” is an on-going process, not a done deal, and something for which we must continually strive.
Oops — I don’t mean to write such a lengthy comment, but it’s difficult to explain what I mean with fewer words. Thanks.
theway1945
/ March 22, 2006:vvv:Anna,
Where there is no Law {of sin and death} there is no sin. Jesus Christ did away with that Law on the cross and we are now under Grace. He don’t look upon sin because He looks at us through what He did for us{If we say we don’t sin then we say that is a lie, cause we all sin ,,,,,BUT in HIS EYES there is no sin………we are the Rightiousness in Christ Jesus. People look on the outward appearance, But He Judges no one. He came to Save not to condemn, and NOW we are CLEAN through the Words that He has spoken to us{we are FREE from sin {and death, because He nailed all of it to the cross, and it was called the LAW of SIN and Death}We are Forgiven Forever of everything…..The book of Romans tells a lot about this. In His eyes we are Perfect., Because of what He has done…………..We need to know who we really are in HIM……………….God Bless……..Marie
Anna
/ March 22, 2006TheWay1945 – You got it.
TXMom2Jami – First, you quoted Philippians 3:12 out of context, and in doing so make it contradict the verses around it. Take a look (quoting 3:7-16, my comments in parenthesis)
But what things were gain to me, those things I counted loss for Christ. Yea, doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith (we have this righteousness): that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Our goal: to attain the resurrection of the dead.) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: (not NEITHER, either.) but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethern, I count not myself to have apprehended (the goal of eternal life via resurrection fo the dead, which is the crux of this discussion); but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those thing which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore AS MANY AS BE PERFECT, be thus minded; and if in any thing be ye otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained (we have attained perfection, NOT the resurrection of the dead), let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
If you read verse 12 alone in order to pull it out and make it say we’re not perfect, you contradict verse 15 when testing the Word against itself. The Word *never* returns void. And taking verses out of context is the way false doctrines emerge.
Your statement about verse 21 is moot – no one questions the fallen state of the body, as it is of this world. The same with the fallen state of society, religion and a dozens other earthly things. But we are (thankfully!) not of this world… (1 Peter 2:11 John 17:16 and Eph 2:19… and actually all of Ephesians 2 confirms my stance in full context.) therefore our bodies are as FKIProfessor pointed out – just the connecting point to this realm – the ‘feet’ – which ‘walk’ thru sin, although Jesus Christ washed the feet before He even took the Cross.
The transformation we need is from the physical to the spiritual, to answer your question. We must crucify the flesh – our earthly thoughts and our earthly practices daily, and set our sights on those things that do not corrupt or decay. Because of what we were, that transition is difficult, especially in light of the fact that we’re still here. But because we’ve already been purified (John 17:23 – note that they are made perfect BEFORE the statement that the world will know Christ by them… and for that matter, pretty much all of John 17 also explains my point…)
I really do want you to understand this, because trying to prove you’re still imperfect despite Christ’s blood seems incongruous to your calling, doesn’t it? Not only that but to confuse fallen man with quickened saint is a gross mistake. Was Christ imperfect because He took on human form? Of course not. The same with us… although we are in corrupted flesh until the resurrection of the dead.
I would repost this as a blog, but I hate beating dead horses. OTOH, I want you to see the Truth. So it’s worth it to continue the discussion here. Hope this helps!
TXMom2Jami
/ March 22, 2006If I understand the above (and I’m not sure that I do, in that I’m writing off the cuff with little time to really chew on it right now), you’re saying that we are perfect in Christ even though we still struggle with temptation and must fight against giving in to our sinful natures? Do we still have a sinful nature if we are perfect in Christ?
I know that I know that I know that I’m saved, and yet I struggle daily to live a life pleasing to God. Anger, impatience, unkind thoughts . . . and even so, most people consider me to be a nice person! Ha! I guess knowing what I struggle with personally, I find it difficult to think of myself as “perfect”.
Anna
/ March 23, 2006Christ was born into flesh and struggled with temptation and fought against a sinful nature (He even admitted it in the Garden when He prayed that this cup might pass over Him)… does that mean He was imperfect? Of course the answer is no. Nobody said there wouldn’t be a struggle. But we are ALREADY overcomers… right? Or does that not hold true for you…?